Also if you don’t mind Sarah, I’m going to see what wizardry I can do behind the scenes to try and move your comment over there too so that you can carry on there (or else will just re-post it )

I just wanted to clarify Oliver please,

are you saying that the depth of relationship that the disciples had with the LORD cannot be attained today
or
are you are saying that it cannot be attained today through reading the Holy Scriptures?

Thanks
Sarah

Alas, no time now to go to greater lengths …
Maybe just a couple of questions:
Do you presume that it is possible to get to know the Lord Jesus Christ equally well from reading the Holy Scriptures than from meeting Him in person as the first disciples did?
If all true Christians have to *start* with Jesus (rather than meeting Him somewhere along the way), does that mean that most of us aren’t real Christians if we’ve begun our journey of faith elsewhere? Or do you only start to call us Christians from the moment we’ve met Christ? (Of course, meeting Him in Spirit and not in the letter which kills.)

Don’t feel obliged to respond here, especially not if you should be doing something else ;-)

As my questions have diverged from the original theme of ‘trinitarian worshippers’, maybe Cath will start a new post for this new thread …

In the choice between Newcastle and Warsaw, Newcastle seems more immediately viable, speaking personally, altho I do tend to migrate northwards from Ed around the 25th Dec rather than southwards. We shall see.

DO WE DIFFER BECAUSE WE ARE AT POINTS IN OUR CHRISTIAN EXPERIENCE WHERE WE ARE RELATING TO A DIFFERENT PERSON OF THE TRINITY?

It seems an unusual suggestion to me. Every christian’s life by its nature must begin with the Lord Jesus Christ although perhaps some are more conscious of that than others.

I cannot see that we can harm our understanding of the Triune Godhead by following the Lord Jesus Christ and looking to Him with all our strength. Paul says, As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. FOR IN HIM DWELLETH ALL THE FULNESS OF THE GODHEAD BODILY (Col 2 v 6) and, For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified (1 Cor 2 v2)

It can only be through the Lord Jesus Christ that we can know the other members of the Godhead at all. There is nothing good in us so there is no way we can contemplate the Father or the Holy Spirit aside from the Lord Jesus Christ. He is the one who reveals them. When Philip asks, “Lord shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us” He says “Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself; but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.” (John 14 v 9-10) and “Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also. (John 8 v 19) and “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you” (John 14 v 25)

I AM IN DANGER OF CONFLATING THE TWO WORDS OF GOD – JESUS AND THE BIBLE?

We can only know Christ through the scriptures. He says “Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me” (John 5 v 39) True the Lord Jesus Christ is a person not a book but it is the book which reveals Him and we are to hang onto that. How else can it be.. “Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom: teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.”? And it is the Comforter who applies that Word to us personally so we know God is dealing with us as individuals in a special way, as it says above “and bring all things to your remembrance”.

I do not think that this emphasis on the scriptures as the way the Lord Jesus is revealed requires one to be dispensational. It is quite clear in Hebrews that the old testament saints were saved by faith in Christ as we are. I accept that the Lord used not only the written word but prophets and speaking directly to people in those days – that does not detract from it being His Word. Peter says “And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.” (2 Pet 18 – 21)

IS IMAGINATION AN AID TO UNDERSTANDING THE SCRIPTURES?

Knowing that God is speaking to oneself personally has to be the most amazing thing in the world. The bible says “in thy presence is fulness of joy” and when we hear the Lord speaking to us we must be in his presence. That must be the greatest desire we have “As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God (Ps 42 v 1) “I will behave myself wisely in a perfect way, O when wilt thou come unto me? (Ps 102 v2) “Mine eyes fail for thy word, saying, When wilt thou comfort me?” (Ps 119 v 87) “Mine eyes prevent the night watches that I might meditate in thy word” (Psalm 119 v 148) “But unto thee have I cried, O LORD; and in the morning shall my prayer prevent thee” (Ps 88 v 13) I accept that the scriptures are the voice of God and these are applied to us in a personal way through the Holy Spirit bringing it to remembrance and through his providence. When that happens it is often utterly amazing.

But it is so easy to be led up the garden path by ones imagination – The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?” (Jer 17 v 9) That is why I am very nervous of my imagination and like to make sure it is at least flagged as imagination. I like to think that when it says “God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes” that it is not that we enter heaven with tears of sadness and regret still on our cheeks but that the view we will have will be so stupendous that we will be so happy that we cannot bear it and we will be in tears of overwhelming happiness needing to be strengthened by the Lord wiping them away. But there is no warrant for that interpretation whatsoever – it is my imagination. But in this case I am happy to imagine because the bible says “eye hath not seen nor ear heard neither hath it entered into the heart of man the things which God hath prepared for those that love Him” so I know I am wrong but that is fine because I cannot possibly know what it will be and whatever I imagine it is even better. But normally I think we should approach the scriptures with as little imagination as possible. We need to ask the Lord to apply it to us personally. When we don’t understand how it applies to us we need to ask Him to show us and change us and so we are purified although it does not yet appear what we shall be. (see 1 John 3 v 2-3)

And we have grounds to expect that the Lord will speak to us in His house if we are personally searching after Him. “When I thought to know this, it was too painful for me; Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end” (Ps 73 v 16 – 17) “Thy way, O God is in the sanctuary: who is so great a God as our God (Psalm 77 v 13) One thing have I desired of the LORD, that will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the LORD, and to enquire in his temple. (Ps 24 v 4) So may it be “And let the beauty of the LORD our God be upon us” (Psalm 90 v 17).

But whatever we are given in the sanctuary or elsewhere (for we cannot limit the Lord) we must test it again by the Scriptures (that is our one sure infallible reference point). “These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily whether those things were so”. Even personal experience must bow to the scriptures. Should our personal experience appear to prove the scriptures wrong yet must we hold onto the scriptures and act accordingly unless the Lord shows us that we have not rightly divided his Word. We trust in the Lord’s word – personal experience assures us but we do not trust in it.

And yes glorious visions are not the main thing. The Lord may give us amazing things but if they distract us from daily fellowship with Him through prayer and the scriptures and seeking his face then we are off the path. So we need to be very watchful to bring into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; (2 Cor 10 v 5)

Sorry about the length of the reply – and I am sure with hindsight I will regret what I have said because I will understand more and know that I was not only seeing through a glass darkly but darkening the glass with my own ideas and faults and sins. But even through such a dark glass the glimpses are truly amazing.

Just briefly: The inseparability of the Trinity and of the dual nature of Christ is very clear to me and I would by no means subtract from any of it (I hope not to be as megalomaniac as to think I could better the explanations of 2000 years of Christian saints, thinkers, authors, philosophers and theologians, most of whom were much better endowed upstairs than yours truly).

If the full picture blows my mind, I’m concentrating on a little bit (until I realize that it’s intricately connected with the next little bit …). At other times, I simply let my mind get blown … Going mystic is exhausting, exhilarating, indescribably yeah! ;-)

And finally, as Cath has moved this discussion to the next blog post, I shall follow suit.

PS: Any chance of continuing some of this face to face? I expect to be meeting Cath in Edinburgh first half of November … Vive Laphroaig …

CCC

KKK